Friday, January 4, 2013

The Discussion that Won the Gun Control Debate

Debate on Gun Control Finally Settled:  It (Gun Control) Doesn't Work

The following began as a Facebook post about a Tulane University student who was victimized Wednesday, January 02, 2013 while walking to his car from campus. Tulane University has a long history of turning its head the opposite direction when students are the victims of violent crimes occurring near campus while students walk to their cars or apartments unarmed, thanks to Tulane's policy of expelling those students who do bring firearms onto campus.
Argument in Favor of Gun Control Defeated PermanentlyThe man who posted the story attended Tulane from 2002-2005, and once had the entire op/ed page from the student newspaper dedicated entirely to hate mail directed at him personally for advocating against preventable violence against women.

A former high school classmate of the individual who posted the story took exception and cited a flawed study that used selective data to ensure a predetermined conclusion was reached, which forced the intelligent individual who posted the story to invest hours into debunking the myths, lies and distortions used by communist saboteurs and fascists to control populations by disarming them.

The following is the entire transcript of that discussion:

In light of a months-long spate of violent crimes against female Tulane students occurring as they were walking from campus to either their homes or vehicles (about a 15 total rapes and/or armed robberies occurring within about a 12-14 week period leading up to the issue preceding the Feb. 04 editio...


  • Zack VanHoven It is tempting to believe in an egalitarian society where everyone packs heat and serves as their own deterrent against violent crime, but history and statistics disagree. We have plenty of examples in history of societies where it was common place for everyone to remain armed. They were certainly not less violent than our own. By way of a modern counterfactual, we can look at the nation of Somalia. Everyone is armed all the time, and it does not seem to be doing them any favo
  • Zack VanHoven It is silly to compare Somalia to the Tulane campus, but it is also equally as silly to suggest that guns reduce violence. Simply carrying a gun on your person quadruples the risk of being a victim of a violent crime when compared to the national average. If the weapon is drawn, the likelihood of being shot to death quadruples when compared to those who remain holstered. So let's just end this logical fallacy that guns reduce violence or risk. By the numbers, they increase its likelihood by 400%.

  • Peter Egan I respect your outspokenness, although I vehemently disagree with you. I knew some of those girls personally. The campus lacks sufficient parking and New Orleans is among the most dangerous cities in the country. All it would have taken is a single student with a gun in the classroom to have saved dozens of lives at Virginia Tech, and although the media buries such stories, there have been countless examples of school shootings thwarted when students who had firearms despite the policy used them against maniacal psychopaths and saved countless lives.

  • Peter Egan Personally, I don't want to be the one who has to tell the girl who was just raped that what she endured is less of a problem than providing her with the right to defend herself.
  • Zack VanHoven Can you provide a single example of a student with a gun thwarting violence and saving lives? I can only find two stories that come close: The Appalachian School of Law Shootings, and the Pearl High School shootings. The gunman in the Appalachian sh...

    People who carry firearms are far likelier to get shot – and killed – than unarmed people, finds a new study of hundreds of shooting victims in

  • Peter Egan Did that study take into consideration the percentage of drug dealers who pack heat relative to the law abiding population?
  • Zack VanHoven Yes it did. Read the article.

  • Peter Egan Most murders in the U.S. are drug-dealer on drug dealer. Gang violence. It's patently absurd to compare the savages who live such lifestyles to members of civilized societies.

  • Peter Egan I do like you Zach. Always have respected you, and respect your willingness to challenge me, wrong as you may be.
  • ‘Gun Control Fails,’ Say Statistics from … Gun-Control Advocates
  • After the Newtown, Connecticut mass murder, anti-rights politicians and media shifted into high gear. The only “solution” for such a tragedy was another gun ban; within two days, Senator Dianne Fe
  • Peter Egan NRA-ILA | Questions for Gun Controllers: If a policy doesn't produce the intended results, why pursu
    In your view, should a public policy have a discernible connection to its stated goal to make it worth pursuing? Or is it enough that it be well intentioned and opposed by the NRA? Actually, there's no need to answer that. It's obvious enough already.
  • Peter Egan
    David Keene: Disagreement over the 2nd Amendment is no reason to abandon the 1st Amendment.
  • Despite their overwhelming popularity, assault weapons like the rifle used by the Sandy Hook Elementary killer are very rarely used in crimes, according to a comprehensive Congressional Research Service report on guns and gun control legislation.

    (Article Continued Below...)

  • Crime victims used to be ignored by criminologists. Then, beginning slowly in the 1940s and more rapidly in the 1970s, interest in the victim's role in crime grew. Yet a tendency to treat the victim as either a passive target of another person's wrongdoing or as a virtual accomplice of the criminal ...
    Peter Egan Dude, your argument has been decisively shredded. The facts speak for themselves. Just acknowledge defeat so at least we can end the conversation with you retaining dignity as a good sport.
  • Recent calls for federal regulations and restrictions on ammunition sales ignore the failure of such laws in the past. They also ignore the impracticality of imposing and enforcing similar controls in today's huge ammunition market. The National Shooting Sports Foundation estimates that 10-12 billio...
    Peter Egan
    Handguns account for over one-third of Americas' 250+ million privately owned firearms. More than one million new handguns are sold in the U.S. annually.
    Peter Egan
    NRA-ILA | Firearm Safety Summary

    The per capita rate and annual number of firearm accident deaths have decreased steadily for decades, and fell to all-time lows in 2006, the mos
    Peter Egan Apples And Oranges

    According to a recent report for Congress on foreign country gun laws states, "From available statistics, among the [27] countries surveyed, it itdifficult to find a correlation between the existence of strict firearms regulations and a lower incidence of gun-related crimes. [I]n Canada a dramatic increase in the percentage of handguns used in all homicides was reported during a period in which handguns were most strictly regulated. And in strictly regulated Germany, gun-related crime is much higher than in countries such as Switzerland and Israel, that have simpler and/or less restrictive legislation." (Library of Congress, "Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 19

  • Peter Egan Washington DC has the strictest gun control laws in the US, and also has the highest rate of gun violence.
    Peter Egan I can keep going if you'd like, but I'd really rather expend the energy in more productive ways than stating the obvious and irrefutable.
  • Peter Egan @Zack VanHoven Of the lone study you cited, the one pull quote you rely on: "University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity..." provides ZERO methodology in terms of how those 677 were selected relative to any and all others. It was clearly an agenda-driven study that used only data that would support its foregone conclusion.

  • Peter Egan There. I win. Game over... Still like you though.

    Zack VanHoven What exactly is my argument Peter? At what point did I say anything about gun control laws or assault rifles? You are carrying on this debate with an imaginary crazy commie liberal, not me. I have no desire to see a ban on assault rifles. Assault rifles are awesome. I'm not trying to advocate stricter gun control laws. I actually agree that gun control laws only keep guns out of law abiding citizens. But facts are facts. Once again, I can see clearly you've never taken any classes on logic, because your debate methods are distracting to the discussion at hand. You did supply one study from 1995 that looks at the issue we started out discussing. Did you even read it? It doesn't exactly agree with you... I know you didn't read the research I sent you, because they answered your first question about it in the first few sentences.
  • Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | The Non-Smoking Gun
    Well, it's finally complete--a Clinton administration-inspired study into the efficacy of various firearm-related controls, restrictions, freedoms and programs by the National Research Council (NRC) of the National Academy of Sciences. Published as a 300-page report entitled Firearms and Violence: A...
    Peter Egan The above references the study you cited. The flaws are so many and so absurd that the fact it was even published was based on a gamble that no one would read beyond the headline.
  • Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder an
    To research that question, researchers Gary Mauser (left) and Don Kates compiled statistics for the rates of murder and gun ownership for nations stretching from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic to the Pacific
  • Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | More Guns, Less Crime (Again) in 2007
    Over the last two decades, many “gun control” laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive at the federal, state, and local levels. Numbers of privately-owned guns and Right-to-Carry states have risen to all-time highs. Every step of the way, “gun control” groups predicted violent crime would ...
  • Peter Egan   NRA-ILA | The Truth About More Guns And Crime--Up

    “More guns equal less crime.” It’s a phrase that’s become ubiquitous among gun-rights proponents and a foundational argument for the seeming renaissance of pro-Second Amendment scholarship and judicial protection occurring today--crowned with the establishment of individual-rights precedent in both ...
    Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | More Guns, Less Crime Again
    Coinciding with a surge in gun purchases that began shortly before the 2008 elections, violent crime decreased six percent between 2008 and 2009, including an eight percent decrease in murder and a nine percent decrease in robbery.
    Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | Traces Of Truth
    Have you ever wondered where gun control supporters have been getting their information when they say "studies show" that gun control reduces crime, or that new laws would prevent crime?

  • Peter Egan "After all, studies conducted by or for the U.S. Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, the Library of Congress and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found no evidence that gun control reduces crime in this country or abroad. And surveys of convicted felons (reported by the Bureau of Justice Statistics) undercut two of the restrictions that gun control groups most want to impose; those studies show that only tiny percentages of criminals use "assault weapons" or get guns of any sort from gun shows."

    These files -- for the U.S., the 50 states, and the District of Columbia -- contain annual statistics for total, serious, violent, and property crimes and incarcerations.
    Peter Egan NRA-ILA | Gun Laws, Culture, Justice & Crime In F
    Do other countries all have more restrictive gun laws and lower violent crime rates than the U.S.? How do U.S. and other countries` crime trends compare? What societal factors affect crime rates?

  • Peter Egan You asked me to read the one source you provided and I did, and identified the statement which acknowledged that it was a study with a foregone conclusion which used selective data to make a predetermined point.

    I've provided hard evidence that irrefutably annihilates an and all pro-gun control arguments. Once you've read them all and you can find any flaw in the methodology or logic please get back to me. Until then, I'm declaring victory.

    Have a good 2013. You're a bit misguided, but you're still an okay guy.
    Peter Egan You'll come away from this looking much better simply acknowledging that you hadn't looked deep enough into the claims being presented by the anti-gun lobby and therefore had not observed the fallacious logic and unscientific methodology used in the so-called "studies" they occasionally release.
  • Peter Egan There are no such flaws in any of what I have presented here. I've provided information - factual information - which defeats ALL arguments in favor of gun control. I figured if I'd be investing the energy I might as well just do away with the notion that gun control is effective has any validity whatsoever.
    Peter Egan Even after all that, I still think you're a decent guy.
  • Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | Gag Order
    When the so-called “mainstream” media completely ignore an important firearm study by the FBI, there’s got to be a good reason--doesn’t there?
  • Peter Egan  NRA-ILA | The Case For Reforming The District of
    H.R. 645, the "Second Amendment Enforcement Act," introduced in the House by Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.), would end D.C.`s prohibition on using guns for self-defense in one`s home and conform other D.C. gun laws to federal laws, while retaining stiff penalties for illegal gun possession, gun crimes. It ...
    Peter Egan  Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes
    As much as gun control advocates might wish otherwise, their attacks are running out of ammo. With private firearm ownership at an all-time high and violent crime rates plunging, none of the scary scenarios they advanced have materialized.

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